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Tako Van Popta

Conservative 11:35 a.m.

“You said a lot but didn't really answer the key question. Let me ask it again.”

Marilène Gill

Bloc Québécois 11:35 a.m.

“I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers. Even the courts seem confused about whether these two kinds of title can coexist. We have a lot of questions and uncertainty. The courts aren't clear, so we need to talk it through and search for practical ways they might be able to coexist, maybe through negotiation and agreements. That's why we're asking these questions responsibly with this motion.”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to go beyond what the courts have said. However, as I have mentioned on several occasions, this is exactly the question we are asking ourselves: How can they coexist? On the one hand, when reading between the lines in the New Brunswick judgment, it appears that they cannot coexist, whereas in British Columbia, with the Cowichan Tribes, for example, it appears that they can coexist. However, we do not know how this could be achieved. We have concerns. There could be negotiations, agreements. Will it be on a case-by-case basis? Obviously, there is still a lot of uncertainty, and I cannot speak on legal matters, but I can point out that we are asking these questions responsibly. How can they coexist? How will we find solutions? Will it be through negotiated agreements? Obviously, there are plenty of questions, so the motion is relevant.

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Hon. Rebecca Alty

Liberal 11:35 a.m.

“Why don't you tell me why this motion actually helps anything? I want you to explain whether it will actually provide clarity and legal certainty.”

Marilène Gill

Bloc Québécois 11:35 a.m.

“I already said yes to the principle but no to the wording. What more do you want from me?”

Mel Arnold

Conservative 11:35 a.m.

“I want this motion to pass so the government can claim it is helping families.”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford. It is always an honour to rise as the elected representative of Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies. As I have previously stated in this place, all of us have a solemn responsibility to provide representation and voice to the citizens who depend on us to do their bidding here in Parliament. Canadians need us to be vigilant for challenges and dangers that emerge and take actions to prevent, mitigate and overcome the challenges and dangers, including unintended consequences caused by the actions or inaction of levels of government. In these times of global uncertainty, Canadians need our vigilance and action perhaps more than at any other time. Today, I rise to speak to today's Conservative opposition day motion. This motion opens with how the Cowichan Tribes v. Canada decision has created massive uncertainty around fee simple property, not just in Richmond, B.C., where the land relevant to the case is located, but across my home province of British Columbia and other parts of Canada. All this is because the legal basis on which Canadians and businesses alike own their homes and land, the basis on which economies are built, the basis that has provided the general stability for growth, investment, surety and prosperity, has been undermined. The certainty of fee simple property has been undermined, and with it the stability and security of every property owner in B.C. and beyond. I believe all of us in this House are proud to call Canada home, while we also recognize historical imperfections, chapters of our shared history in which forebears, including the federal government, failed. It is important to recognize and learn from historical failures. It helps strengthen our nation. So does recognizing our historical successes, reflected by the fact that our ancestors and predecessors built a country that others around the globe have admired because they have seen the opportunities that flowed from our stability and certainty. However, the sharp decline in certainty in the wake of the Cowichan decision has caused instability, directly harming opportunities for Canadians, while also putting a chill on those who would otherwise invest in Canada. If others look at Canada and see internal turmoil and conflict rather than stability, they will go elsewhere to pursue opportunities. Instability and insecurity reflect on Parliament, and all parliamentarians should reflect on how we can increase stability and security for citizens, both today and far into the future. The Cowichan decision is already having a significant impact on the outlook of citizens. Home values and project financing, not just in the immediate area around Richmond but across B.C., have been impacted. When I meet with people at events and on the streets across the riding of Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, people come up to me and ask if their future and title to their property, which they have worked a lifetime to pay for, are at risk. The instability caused by the Cowichan decision was compounded when the Liberals negotiated the Musqueam Rights Recognition Agreement in secret, without ensuring that it contains protections for property rights and without ensuring proper transparency or consultation with other potentially affected first nations. The Musqueam agreement covers up to 533,000 hectares, including metro Vancouver and the Richmond lands that are at the centre of the Cowichan ruling. Canadians are asking questions, questions that the Liberal government will not answer. When the Prime Minister stated, “All federal agreements with first nations, with indigenous peoples and with rights holders protect private property rights and protect indigenous peoples' rights”, did he know that this is not the case? The Musqueam Rights Recognition Agreement contains the word “private” only once and not in reference to private property. The Musqueam Stewardship and Marine Management Agreement does not contain the word “private” or “property”. The Musqueam Fisheries Agreement does not mention the word “private” or “property”. The agreement that provides the Musqueam with revenues from the Vancouver airport does not contain the word “private” or “property”. None of these agreements signed by the Liberal government protect private property rights, as the Prime Minister tried to claim they do, so either the Prime Minister has no idea what is in these agreements or he has been misleading Canadians. If we are to have true reconciliation in Canada, I believe we must also have truth. When we have a Prime Minister who either does not know or does not care what agreements his government is signing, or is willing to mislead Canadians on what is in those secretly negotiated agreements, it is no wonder that Canadians have questions for us, as they have elected us to be their representatives and voice. Canadians already face enough pressure from high costs and economic uncertainty without having to wonder whether their homes are truly theirs. The Liberal government must provide certainty and stability by openly reaffirming private property in court, and it must make it clear in writing that Canadians' homes and land titles will be protected. Thus far, they have failed to do this. As Conservatives, we have urged the federal government to reinstate the arguments before the Court of Appeal that fee simple landownership supersedes all other titles, and we call on the government to take the following steps to protect property rights. Step one would be to put private property first in the Cowichan case by arguing that this has priority over all other titles and reversing the current position directing federal lawyers not to argue for property rights and the withdrawal of the extinguishment argument from the earlier 2018 decision. Step two would be to make no agreement without explicit property protection, so that existing fee simple owners are protected in all future agreements with first nations, reversing the government's failure to explicitly protect people's homes in the agreements the Liberal government has signed, which fail to explicitly protect fee simple property ownership, causing confusion, fear and risk, instability and uncertainty. At a time in global history when we are all seeing so much instability and uncertainty, this is a time when Canada could be a shining example in which all Canadians, regardless of ancestry, could have the sense of certainty and stability that others used to see in us. We cannot restore certainty and stability through secretly negotiated agreements. I have always believed that bringing everyone to the same table allows us to fully understand each other's perspective. Failing to do so only brings speculation, skepticism and distrust. If we are to build trust and respect, we need the government to respect all Canadians and restore confidence for homeowners across British Columbia and Canada, by convening a parliamentary committee to study all legal, constitutional and political steps that can protect private property rights in Canada, in light of the Cowichan decision and the Musqueam agreement. In this way, the government can begin restoring trust, the trust that is required to move forward with the transparency, balance, stability and certainty that Canada once had.

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Hon. Rebecca Alty

Liberal 11:45 a.m.

“You want the motion to pass. I think it goes too far. Why should first nations get property rights that the provinces don't get?”

Mel Arnold

Conservative 11:50 a.m.

“The Prime Minister said private property rights are protected. I checked. It's not in the agreements. Was the Prime Minister wrong or lying?”

Mario Beaulieu

Bloc Québécois 11:50 a.m.

“I want to shift this debate to a different committee. The other side says it got shut down there, but my friend says that's not true. Can we just study it there instead of making a whole new committee?”

Mel Arnold

Conservative 11:50 a.m.

“I don't trust the government to allow discussion at the existing committee. They shut down things they don't like. We need a new committee they don't control.”

Jeff Kibble

Conservative 11:50 a.m.

“I want you to talk about risks of secret agreements. It helps when people see the process is transparent. Secret deals behind closed doors are bad.”

Mel Arnold

Conservative 11:50 a.m.

“I'm scared of secret agreements. I don't know what's in them. But they must be bad. And it's the Liberals fault.”

Jeff Kibble

Conservative 11:50 a.m.

“I want the government to act on the Cowichan decision. It's creating uncertainty and division. Private property rights are at risk. The government isn't doing anything. They're being silent. I want them to protect private property rights. I want them to make a plan. I want them to convene a committee. I want them to respect indigenous rights and private homeowners. I want economic reconciliation. The Prime Minister needs to act.”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the great people of Vancouver Island, and especially all of the seniors, families, workers, businesses and, perhaps most importantly, the youth of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford. Our communities stretch from Langford to Crofton, Thetis Island to Lake Cowichan to Port Renfrew and across the beautiful Cowichan Valley. It is home to numerous first nations, including the Cowichan Tribes, the largest first nation in British Columbia. We are a people who love where we live. We are people who take pride in our homes, our neighbourhoods and our future. We are rooted in the lands, the rivers, the forests, the mountains and, of course, the ocean. They are all integral parts of our soul. Today, we are all worried. The Cowichan land decision has created uncertainty and division that no community, indigenous or non-indigenous, should ever have to face. Be it on the island or across British Columbia, home values are falling, banks are refusing mortgages, sales have stalled, businesses are looking elsewhere or moving away, and anger and division are building. People are lashing out at one another. This is heartbreaking, and it is unacceptable. The Liberal government has offered nothing. There is no clarity, no plan and no leadership. The language in the Cowichan ruling describes aboriginal title as a “prior and senior right to land”, effectively creating a groundbreaking precedent putting aboriginal title above fee simple title. In other words, all privately held and Crown land is at risk. This has now created real fear of whether private property rights will still hold weight across British Columbia and, indeed, across Canada. These are not abstract legal questions, however. They are conversations happening every night in Duncan, Langford, Shawnigan Lake and Mill Bay and within the Cowichan Tribes. Parents are asking whether their home, their single greatest asset, is still secure. Seniors are wondering whether they can afford to retire and young families are questioning whether they can stay on Vancouver Island at all. Our youth are wondering what Canada will look like in the future. Our first nations are seeing reconciliation sentiment taking a major step backwards. Through all of this, the Prime Minister has remained silent. Instead of leadership, we have his litigation directive number 14, which forbids federal government lawyers from defending private property rights. It is a directive that tied their hands in British Columbia's appeals court and will now automatically tie their hands again, this time in the Supreme Court of Canada going forward. This is not reconciliation. This is the abandonment of all Canadians, and it is deepening division, anger and stress among neighbours, friends and families, which is exactly the opposite of what reconciliation should bring. British Columbia deserves better, Vancouver Island deserves better and the Cowichan Tribes deserve better. Reconciliation cannot be built on secretly negotiated agreements or confusion. It cannot come at the expense of homeowners, the very stability of our economy or the core of our country. For decades, we had a made-in-Canada approach that balanced indigenous rights with the needs of society as a whole through an established treaty process. Section 35 of our Constitution recognized and affirmed these rights. It created a framework that brought stability and prosperity. It was not perfect, but it worked, and now the Liberal government has walked away from that. It has leaned on the declaration of the United Nations, which is an unelected body. It is not Canadian and it is not part of our legal system. The declaration is not binding and was never intended to override private property rights, yet the Liberals are using UNDRIP as if it does. The Liberals signed the rights recognition agreement with the Musqueam, which is not a treaty through the court system, but a closed-door, secretly negotiated agreement that failed to explicitly protect fee simple or private property owners and neglected to even mention them. It is an agreement that awarded the Musqueam aboriginal land title over the majority of greater Vancouver, including lands previously awarded to the Cowichan Tribes in Richmond, B.C. They created a conflict between two separate aboriginal titles. In fact, almost all of British Columbia is potentially under overlapping aboriginal land claims. With the Cowichan decision setting the precedent that aboriginal title is superior to private property and Crown title, British Columbia is in a mess. That precedent has now rippled across Vancouver Island, creating confusion and fear from Langford to Ladysmith and across British Columbia. This is not reconciliation. This is recklessness. Today, I am calling on the Prime Minister to act clearly, publicly and immediately. Our Conservative plan has four straightforward pillars. First, put private property rights first in the Cowichan case and restore the extinguishment agreement the Liberals abandoned in 2018. No one should ever have to wonder whether their home is truly their home. Second, make no agreement without explicit protection for all existing fee simple owners. The secret Musqueam agreement failed to do this. The Prime Minister must correct this mistake and guarantee that all future agreements protect people's homes. Third, publish a plan within 30 days to protect Canadians affected by the Cowichan decision in the Musqueam agreement. Do not hold a press conference. Do not make a promise. Do not sign an MOU. Publish a real plan with timelines and commitments, delivered personally by the Prime Minister. Finally, convene a special parliamentary committee to examine every legal, constitutional and political tool available to protect private property rights across Canada. This crisis is not limited to the Cowichan Valley. It has spread across Vancouver Island, Richmond and British Columbia, and it will soon spread across Canada. If we do nothing, we will leave future generations with a fractured legal landscape and a broken economy. There is a better path, one that respects indigenous rights and private homeowners. We see that path in our Conservative platform. It is practical, economic reconciliation. It will put first nations back in control of their own revenues, reduce bureaucracy and government controls, strengthen local economies, including on Vancouver Island, and bring first nations into the federation as full partners, not wards of the state. First nations chiefs from across the country and across British Columbia have said the same thing. They want less Ottawa and more autonomy, and they want to build prosperity for their people. Conservatives agree. Reconciliation must be built on partnership, not secrecy; on clarity, not confusion; on respect, not fear; and on truth, not misinformation. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission called for both truth and reconciliation. The Prime Minister has failed to deliver either. The great people across Cowichan—Malahat—Langford deserve a government that protects their homes and their future. The Cowichan Tribes deserve a government that respects their jurisdiction and supports their economic independence. Canada deserves a government that understands that reconciliation and private property rights are not competing ideas, but are both essential to a stable and united Canada. The Prime Minister has a choice. He can continue down a path of silence and uncertainty or he can act clearly, transparently and responsibly to restore confidence in our legal system and protect the rights of every Canadian. My community is watching, the Cowichan Tribes are watching and Vancouver Island is watching, and we are waiting. It is time for the Prime Minister to show leadership.

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Anthony Housefather

Liberal 12:00 p.m.

“I want you to stop spreading disinformation. The Prime Minister already clearly said he would protect private property rights. The government appealed the decision. I don't think a committee should develop legal arguments. We already have expert constitutional lawyers arguing for the government. I want you to trust the government's arguments.”

Jeff Kibble

Conservative 12:00 p.m.

“You're spreading misinformation. The Prime Minister didn't really defend this. He tied the hands of government lawyers with the extinguishment clause. And the Supreme Court filing wasn't immediate - it was done at the last minute. I want real truth and honesty.”

Bob Zimmer

Conservative 12:00 p.m.

“I see a news headline that says a big project in BC didn't get a loan because of uncertainty from the Cowichan Tribes title ruling. The government says it's no big deal, others say it's no big deal, but I think that's really happening on the ground. I don't trust the Prime Minister's words. What are you actually hearing from people in your community?”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, a headline from Business in Vancouver reads, “Councillor says $100M project denied loan over Cowichan case, bank says not a factor”. The article goes on to say, “A Richmond, B.C., councillor says a company based in the city has been refused financing for what she says is a $100 million project because of uncertainty over their site due to the Cowichan Tribes aboriginal title ruling.” We are hearing conflicting things. We hear the government say it is no big deal here and other people are saying it is no big deal there, but that is what is happening and that is the reality on the ground. Despite the empty words from the Prime Minister and the minister, to the member from Vancouver Island, what are the genuine fears you are hearing about from members in your own community on the ground?

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Jeff Kibble

Conservative 12:05 p.m.

“People in my riding are worried about their property values and mortgages. The provincial NDP government is only making things worse. I want the government to do more to address these concerns and prevent racism and anger from escalating.”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, I really agree with my colleague's statement about empty promises and empty words. People are worried about the value of their property. They are worried about getting mortgages. In fact, it is so bad that the provincial NDP government is now having to back mortgages in affected areas, and it can do that only for a small area. It is going to need to do that for the entire province. People are worried. Property assessments are now coming with waivers saying the property value only stands as long as it is not superceded by aboriginal title. People in my riding of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford are facing real concerns, and they are facing increasing racism and anger. This comes on top of tough economic times as well. There are very valid reasons for concern, and we are seeing it across Vancouver Island and British Columbia.

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Taleeb Noormohamed

Liberal 12:05 p.m.

“You say you want true reconciliation, but your party won't even condemn its own member who denies indigenous genocide and blames them for residential schools. That's not reconciliation.”

Jeff Kibble

Conservative 12:05 p.m.

“I don't know the details of the Musqueam agreement. I don't want to talk about what a member of my party said. I want to complain the government is being secretive.”

Taleeb Noormohamed

Liberal 12:05 p.m.

“I want British Columbians to know I care about their property rights. Reconciliation and property rights can coexist if we trust the legal system. The other party is causing uncertainty and division on this issue for political gain, but I won't let them.”

Official Hansard

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for South Surrey—White Rock. I rise this afternoon to speak about a court decision that has caused real worry in my province and to speak directly to the Canadians, particularly British Columbians, who have been watching this debate and wondering what it means for them and for their homes. Let us begin with the facts, because the facts have been in short supply in the debate by members opposite. The fact is that the government has fundamentally disagreed with, and continues to disagree with, the British Columbia Supreme Court's decision in Cowichan. The fact is that we appealed that decision on September 8 of last year. The fact is that the Prime Minister of Canada has stood in this House and stated clearly to all who would listen that private property rights are fundamental, that this government will protect them and that federal agreements, including agreements about aboriginal title, have always protected and will always protect private property. These are the facts. They are on the record. They are not in dispute, except by those who find facts inconvenient to the story that they would prefer to tell, a story that leads to mistrust, anti-indigenous racism and, perhaps most importantly, instability in British Columbia's economy. I want to speak directly to the homeowner in Richmond who read a headline and felt their stomach drop. I want to speak to the family in my riding of Vancouver Granville who have spent 20 years paying down a mortgage and are now wondering whether the ground beneath their home is as solid as they believed it to be. I want to speak to the small business owner who has been asking their bank for financing and getting questions they have never been asked before. These concerns are legitimate. A home is the largest investment most Canadians will ever make. When a court raises questions about the relationship between aboriginal title and fee simple ownership, people are right to ask for clarity. They deserve a serious answer, not a slogan or a sound bite, so allow me, if you would, Mr. Chair, to give them one. Three principles guide this government's response to the Cowichan decision. First, we believe in the security of private property. Canadians who hold title to their homes and their land must be able to rely on that title. This should not be a partisan position. It is the foundation on which families plan their future, on which businesses make investments and on which our economy functions. Second, we believe in the principles of reconciliation. Reconciliation is not a slogan, and it is not an obstacle to be managed. It is a constitutional and moral obligation that this country has been working through for generations, and we continue that work patiently, lawfully and in good faith. Third, we believe in building shared prosperity for homeowners, for workers, for businesses and for indigenous communities who have for too long been excluded from the economic life of this country. These are not competing goods. They are connected goods. I want to be honest with the House and with the Canadians watching. The legal questions raised in the Cowichan decision are genuinely complex, and the clarity that Canadians deserve is going to come from where it should come from in our system: from the courts on appeal, with all viable arguments tested and all parties heard. That process is under way. It will take time, and none of us should stand in this place and pretend otherwise, because Canadians deserve, as I said before, a serious answer, not a slogan. They deserve facts, not fearmongering. The Conservative motion before the House asks Canadians to choose between the first principle and the second. It asks them to believe that property rights and reconciliation cannot exist in harmony. This is false and has always been false, and the people advancing that false choice know it is false. Let me say something very clearly. The legal questions we are working through in Cowichan are not questions that indigenous peoples created. They are the product of decisions made by the Crown over generations in a province where most of the land was never covered by treaty. The Crown made those decisions, the Crown bears responsibility to resolve them, and no responsible government should allow any ordinary homeowner to be made afraid, or indigenous peoples to be scapegoated, while that work is carried out. Here is what is being missed in the noise: Almost every party to this litigation has gone to the Court of Appeal. The Government of Canada is appealing. The Province of British Columbia is appealing. The City of Richmond is appealing. Musqueam is appealing. Chief Wayne Sparrow has spoken publicly about Musqueam's deep concern with the decision that declared aboriginal title in what they assert is their own traditional territory. Tsawwassen First Nation is appealing alongside Musqueam on similar grounds. The Cowichan themselves are appealing on different grounds. This is not the picture of settled judgment. This is the picture of a decision that has satisfied almost no one, that produced a clarity that almost no one was looking for and that is now being worked through by our courts exactly as our system is designed to handle it. This is also not the story of homeowners on one side and indigenous peoples on the other. It is the story of a serious country with a serious legal system doing serious work. This includes first nations that are using that very system to seek the clarity that each and every one of us needs and deserves. It is the story that members opposite are refusing to tell because it does not serve a political agenda. The cost of that political agenda and of this misinformation is real and is being paid right now in my home province of British Columbia. Just yesterday, the Business Council of British Columbia released a survey of its members. About 74% of respondents are decreasing investment plans in B.C., one in three are reducing hiring, 41% report harder access to external financing, and 80% of those same business leaders say they continue to support reconciliation as an important goal. Why are they reducing those investments? They are reducing those investments because of misinformation and uncertainty that is being spurred on by people who would like to use the Cowichan decision as a political cudgel. In this House, in this Parliament, we must ensure that does not continue, for the security of the economy in British Columbia and for preservation of the principle of true reconciliation. The people who are supporting reconciliation are very clear. This is a business community that is pro-reconciliation and is exhausted by uncertainty. They are not asking us to choose. They are asking us to lead. The damage is not abstract. Homes are not being built. Jobs are not being created. There are workers waiting for projects that have been paused while financing is renegotiated. There are businesses across B.C. that are delaying decisions; holding back on investment; watching the noise around this case created by politicians, not by the courts; and concluding that the cost of moving forward is too uncertain to bear. That is what irresponsibility looks like in practice, and it is being done deliberately for the political gain of the party opposite. The seriousness of this moment is not lost on the political leadership of British Columbia. The Premier of B.C. has spoken at length about the impact of legal uncertainty on his province. Mayors have spoken. The City of Richmond is in court. There is broad cross-partisan recognition in B.C., not from one party and not from one ideology but from across the political spectrum of my province, that resolving this matters and that the work cannot wait. The only people who seem to disagree are the Conservative members opposite, who have decided that uncertainty and a parliamentary committee are more useful to them than actual resolution of the problem. The Conservatives know exactly what they are doing. They know that the Cowichan decision is under appeal. They know that the Government of Canada, the Province of B.C., the City of Richmond, Musqueam and Tsawwassen First Nation have all gone to the Court of Appeal precisely because the legal questions need to be resolved. They know that the Prime Minister has committed, clearly and repeatedly, that this government will defend private property rights. They know the historical record across this country is that modern treaties and negotiated agreements have always protected private property. Not one Canadian has lost their private property as a result of a negotiated agreement. They know this, and they are choosing every day to tell their constituents the opposite because fear is more politically useful than the truth. It is not leadership but a calculation, and the people paying for that calculation are the homeowners they claim to defend. I want to close with a story about what is possible when we get this right. This Friday in my riding of Vancouver Granville, I will be at the blessing ceremony of the opening of Sen̓áḵw. Sen̓áḵw sits in Squamish territory at the foot of the Burrard bridge, where it has always been, in the land, in the stories and in the people. What is new is what is being built there: 6,000 rental homes in a city that is desperately in need of them. This is true reconciliation, where rents to 30% below market are being provided by the Squamish Nation in partnership with the Government of Canada. The Squamish Nation is moving toward economic independence and helping Vancouver provide the housing it needs. Property rights will be respected, indigenous rights will be honoured, homes will be built, and jobs will be created. For the Squamish Nation, there will be prosperity, and for the city that I represent, 6,000 families will be able to call Sen̓áḵw home. That is reconciliation, that is prosperity, and that is what is possible when we refuse the false choice being put upon us by the opposition. That is happening in real time in my riding. To the homeowners in my riding and across B.C. who have been worried, the government has appealed the Cowichan decision. We are advancing every legally viable argument to defend the security of fee simple. We have been clear, from the Prime Minister on down, that protecting private property is fundamental to who we are as a country, and we will always stand for that.

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Glen Motz

Conservative 12:15 p.m.

“You're personally profiting from this decision. Admit it.”

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